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| 3:57:50 PM - Wed, Aug 31st 2011 |
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So I sent a PM to M-Explorer that he suggested I bring up for discussion with everyone. The question I posed to him was about using Asylum Projects name when making requests of information to governmental entities, sites, and organizations that might respond better to a request from an organization rather than an individual. I felt this might help in getting requests looked at and build the name of the site, getting more contributors to add their information on specific sites of interest.
The other part of this was the suggestion that a group e-mail account run by the admins of the site be set up to process and send formal requests for the site, with senior contributors making the bulk of the requests. This would protect the site form the issue of someone being a jerk and making stupid requests or comments in the name of the site, while adding some credibility to the requests being made.
I know nothing about liability and am by no means a lawyer. At best I am an internet savvy and persistent pest who will keep contacting people until I find what I am looking for, but if doing something like this can help others find something we cannot individually, I am all for helping however I can.
Mostly I am posting this to see how people feel about the idea of sending requests on behalf of the site, concerns that might exist with doing so, and thoughts on the e-mail account idea. Even if people think it sounds like a ridiculous idea and want nothing to do with it, I'd like to hear it.
Sincerley,
Evilavatar
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M-Explorer Forum:Admin, Forum:Mod, bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop
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| 6:03:35 PM - Wed, Aug 31st 2011 |
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Here's my stance on it:
Now I've forgotten if I mentioned this or someone else said they were going to, but I have no issues with you guys saying: "I'm a member of Asylum Projects..." and other derivations of that sentiment including Asylum Projects after your name, if you think that could help with your research.
For legalities:
- You guys do not have the power to make agreements on behalf of Asylum Projects without getting express approval from me or from someone else I designate for those situations. This also include monetary agreements as any sort of payment Asylum Projects would make, would be coming out of my pockets. If someone wants to hook something up with Asylum Projects or we would need to pay something to get access, contact me.
- Also, as it needs to be mentioned, Asylum Projects does not endorse any sort of illegal activity including things that would be considered gray areas.
For the email thing:
- First I would need to look into the technicalities to doing something like that. I know this site only is allowed up to 13 free email accounts (I.E. with an asylumprojects.org ending to them), however to access those accounts you would either need access to the site's control panel or use Microsoft Outlook, Mozilla's Thunderbird, or some other email program to be able to use any of those email accounts. The issue with using email programs is that most of them will download all emails off the server, thus only one person can read that account. So I would have to look at a way to get a web interface that authorized people can access to use and read email from that account.
- Second, we would have to come up with a way to restrict access to that account due to that there would be people out there who would want to use the email account for purposes other then what we want. (Again comes back to a legality thing) So we would have to come up with a set of rules/points that people would have to meet and observe before they would be granted access to the account. I would think at least one or two things would be: the amount of edits they do to the database that shows their commitment to improve the database, their interaction/helpfulness on the boards, etc.
Now, I personally have access to the [email protected] email account. If instead of trying to create another account, you want to send something through there, send me the email and I'll send it through the account and then I'd send you the reply. I'm not sure if people want to do that, but I'm always willing to do it. That would be about as official an email from Asylum Projects that we could get.
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Forum Regular
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| 6:55:21 PM - Wed, Aug 31st 2011 |
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My thought was not necessary an account from this sites web hosting or with an @asylumprojects.org name. More something like a 3rd party account through Gmail or another provider named [email protected] that would be upkept by members for use as an account tool that could be held by administrators of the site for official or semi official use.
Again the legalities are the reason I brought this up to M-explorer before even suggesting it to the whole site. I have no issue at all using my name when making requests and would say that one of the rules if an account was made is that you need to use at least your real first name in correspondence and are responsible for any and all claims made. I myself don't go after anything I can't get for free because the internet offers so many routes to get data for free. I'd never suggest giving access to administrative tools for the actual webpage unless it was to a mod team of people that m-explorer trusts.
I'm not even sure if I would fit that as I haven't been here that long, but I do a lot of research in my free time and have found that it's something I enjoy and am good at most of the time. I'm more than happy to pass along what I find and if it helps the admins drum up viewership of the site, the better it is for site viewership. My thought here was to create a service of use to the site and to gain viewership. None of us knows everything about all the sites listed on the page, but collectively many of the questions (85+ percent I'd guess) that could come up could be answered by probably 5-6 people here.
I think using the 3rd party route would relieve some liability while still creating a means to add legitimacy to the site and any requests made to agencies. Most agencies probably won't care but than again, sometimes getting the backing or perceived backing of a large group can get you what you are looking for.
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M-Explorer Forum:Admin, Forum:Mod, bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop
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| 8:59:01 PM - Wed, Aug 31st 2011 |
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Quote:Evilavatar Wed 31st 6:55 pmMy thought was not necessary an account from this sites web hosting or with an @asylumprojects.org name. More something like a 3rd party account through Gmail or another provider named [email protected] that would be upkept by members for use as an account tool that could be held by administrators of the site for official or semi official use.
Again the legalities are the reason I brought this up to M-explorer before even suggesting it to the whole site. I have no issue at all using my name when making requests and would say that one of the rules if an account was made is that you need to use at least your real first name in correspondence and are responsible for any and all claims made. I myself don't go after anything I can't get for free because the internet offers so many routes to get data for free. I'd never suggest giving access to administrative tools for the actual webpage unless it was to a mod team of people that m-explorer trusts.
I'm not even sure if I would fit that as I haven't been here that long, but I do a lot of research in my free time and have found that it's something I enjoy and am good at most of the time. I'm more than happy to pass along what I find and if it helps the admins drum up viewership of the site, the better it is for site viewership. My thought here was to create a service of use to the site and to gain viewership. None of us knows everything about all the sites listed on the page, but collectively many of the questions (85+ percent I'd guess) that could come up could be answered by probably 5-6 people here.
I think using the 3rd party route would relieve some liability while still creating a means to add legitimacy to the site and any requests made to agencies. Most agencies probably won't care but than again, sometimes getting the backing or perceived backing of a large group can get you what you are looking for.
A third party I easily wouldn't have any issues with. I was originally thinking that you wanted an email address with the asylumprojects.org ending. Though, before progressing any father, I'd wait to hear from others. See what they think and any ideas/issues they may have.
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| 11:44:19 PM - Wed, Aug 31st 2011 |
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| I am kinda confused as to what the use of this email is for? To gain historical images, historical documents/papers or to gain legal access to the buildings?
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Thomasp94 Forum:Admin, Forum:Mod, bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop
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| 11:43:44 AM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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Quote:Porcelain Doll2 Wed 31st 11:44 pmI am kinda confused as to what the use of this email is for? To gain historical images, historical documents/papers or to gain legal access to the buildings?
I believe the main goal here is access to buildings. Correct? But it could also be used for all of the above.
To be honest, I'm not so much in favor of this at the moment, but need some time to think on it before I come up with a detailed reply.
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| 1:20:26 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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I'm not necessarily looking to explore place, I am pretty home bound right now as I ahve a 6 month old baby, wife and 2 young kids at home and although it would be cool if it would help people in gaining access to buildings. The idea I had behind the at the time stems from an ongoing search for data for someone on another site, as much as looking for stuff for the site here.
Basically my thought on this was to try and help save individuals from having to put in so much work when looking for something on a specific building. A good example would be the cemeteries at Norristown. One of us could spend a decade looking and find nothing at all about where the persons who died there were interred. Most of this has to do with HIPPA rules and the states stance on release of information for mental health patients who died (See my post on MSH in the other part of the forums. The state is not releasing the data on deceased patients in the normal fashion, meaning the only way you can get anything is by requesting the death certificate (which may or may not be helpful, going through you own medical provider if you are a relative and showing there is medical reason to request the records, or some other legally acceptable reason.)
When I have made requests and tried to get information from some agencies I found out that people from the county historical society or other organizations like it with the same contacts have been able to get some or all of the data I was looking for simply because they work for the historical society, even though my requests are ignored or worse, forwarded into an endless cycle of requests to people who pass you on to someone else. My thought was to create a legitimate place that requests from this site can be made, divide some of the labor, and make it possible for the site to do some official investigations for publicly available data, that individuals might not be able to access. I enjoy doing research in what little free time I have, but the best part is actually hitting pay dirt and getting somewhere.
Again this was just a thought too, maybe I just make too many requests for stuff that I am not technically supposed to be able to get information on or am entirely off base with it.
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Forum Regular
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| 1:21:18 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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| Sorry the above was me again, forgot to log in....
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| 1:54:54 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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I'm still kind of 50/50 on this.
I like the idea of Asylum Projects becoming more of a professional/formal group in a "historical society" kind of way. I can see where this would help in some cases.
Access to buildings or records is a really funny thing. In my personal research I have had no trouble getting a wealth of info. from both Topeka State Hospital and the Clarinda Treatment Complex (former Clarinda State Hospital). In other cases it has been the opposite, Mass. and DCAM in particular are notorious for giving you absolutely nothing (unless your intentions are to purchase the property and demolish everything). I also know that David & Karie Esmann from Forgotten Photography have had tremendous luck using the letter found here: http://forgottenphotography.com/media/letters/preservation.htm
which portrays them as not just photographers, but professionals seeking to document historic sites.
So in a nutshell I can see a lot of benefits to doing this. If anyone can see any negatives, please post them for discussion.
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| 2:52:25 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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WSH the negatives I see are the risk of someone being a jack ass and making obscene or stupid requests in the vein of, " Ple34Ze Sent me free Stuff about blank --- I will pay in cash $$$$'s for your help." Or worse the spamming of messages about financial support of the site or something along those lines, which would hurt the site and its reputation.
This is why I brought the idea up to M-Explorer before suggesting it. I think it is would be a tremendous step for the site in terms of name recognition but it has to have backing to manage it right and people to make sure that users aren't going to do something stupid like that. It would also have to be something people would want to support and if there are people concerned with the idea of the implication I think it is worth erring on the side of caution.
I think M-brought up a lot of the big issues in the first posting he made.
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Thomasp94 Forum:Admin, Forum:Mod, bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop
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| 3:13:25 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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I guess one of the big concerns for me is liability. There is also the matter of who uses it, how do they use it, should an admin preview the emails, etc, etc. I don't want to see an Asylum Project reference used for the wrong purposes, like for someone to just go explore. Obviously there is nothing stopping someone from creating an email right now on their Hotmail account or whatever and say "I'm from Asylum Projects and I would like to photograph your hospital.". I don't want to see the reputation of the site become known at hospitals and state governments as one of annoyance and people asking to tour hospitals all the time. (Not to say that is your intent Evilavatar, I realize now you are looking more for information). But what stops someone from coming in and using it for such means?
Personally I have gained access to information, photos, documents, and even active hospitals on my own merit. If you just explain your situation and create a well thought out and grammatically correct email and get it to the right person, chances are you will get a positive reply. And if you don't, try again in a few months or in a year. Positions at state agencies change a lot. You also have to remember that these are busy people with a job to do, and their job isn't necessarily to facilitate our requests.
I know Squad as well as others on here have gotten ample amounts of information and data from hospitals and other agencies, and as far as I know they too did it on their own without the help from this website. I'm having a hard time finding the need for this I guess, considering the work involved and how much it opens us up to possible abuse by the wrong individual. Perhaps if there was something that we as a group had great interest in, or if there was a state agency that was stone walling someone on something that is seemingly within their right to know. But we can't just allow anyone to use such a tool without checks and balances in place.
Maybe the better thing to do would be for us to offer assistance to those wishing to create an email to send for these requests. As I stated above it's important to have the email be well thought out, make sense, and have proper grammar. An email to a state official that looks like it came from a 16 year old on a cell phone is going to go right in the trash. I know because I get emails through my own hospital websites from people requesting things and some of them are just ridiculous. Maybe we can even have a forum area for this that can not be viewed by people without an account and it can all be done there. A member can post an email they wish to send and we can help get it perfect. If that email then fails perhaps we can consider putting the AP name on it and try again.
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| 3:48:01 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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Thomas, I totally understand your point which makes for another good reason to make an account before someone else does. Even if for no other reason than to say, "This is the official e-mail and anything you get from anyone else is not the product of, nor condoned by asylumprojects in any way." If you hold the accounts with like hotmail, gmail, and yahoo (the big three) than at least no one else can make those accounts and claim to be someone from here.
On top of what you said, being respectful and asking nicely can get you a long way too. I work in a clinic myself, but I get dumped on so I get a lot of the crazy requests for things.
unrelated side note: I just updated White Cloud Sanatorium in the Michigan section and uploaded a post card picture I had. I am having issues with imbedding the image on the page though. If anyone gets time can they help me out 
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Edited On 3:50:33 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 by Evilavatar
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| 3:52:32 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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| I think for the time being, we shouldn't and if we do it should be limited to certain individuals so that the email doesn't become abused by people.
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M-Explorer Forum:Admin, Forum:Mod, bureaucrat, checkuser, sysop
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| 9:12:36 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 |
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Quote:Evilavatar Thu 1st 3:48 pm
unrelated side note: I just updated White Cloud Sanatorium in the Michigan section and uploaded a post card picture I had. I am having issues with imbedding the image on the page though. If anyone gets time can they help me out
I fixed what you were trying to do. Go and hit edit to see how I posted the image so you can see how to do it with other later on. I also suggest taking a moment to read: Help:Images
I guess by reading various people's comment's that everyone is a bit leery of creating an email account. I'd say lets put that idea on the back burner.
Maybe as a way of a compromise, if someone or all of us needs/wants to send a fully official email from Asylum Projects then just post the email here and I'll send it through our [email protected] account. Otherwise, most people would prefer to use their own email address.
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Edited On 9:13:18 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 by M-Explorer
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| 1:39:08 PM - Fri, Sep 2nd 2011 |
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| I like the idea of and admin. or someone of that nature having the ability to review the email before it's sent, if we end doing it.
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