Clarinda SH is not a Kirkbride

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"The building is designed to embrace in its structure a combination of both the compact and cottage hospital plans—a modification of both, believed to embrace the advantages without the objectionable features of each. The work has been carried forward until it is now nearing completion in the violent and infirmary wards of the female wing."

This is kinda what I thought from the start. That they picked out the parts of existing plans they they liked and created their own plan. I'm starting to think we have ourselves yet another example of a Transition Plan.


BTW, why is Norristown still listed as an Echelon Plan?
http://www.thomas-industriesinc.com/ - Author of Harrisburg State Hospital (Images of America). Owner of City on the Hill & Danville State Hospital websites.

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Quote:Soldat251 Thu 1st 4:45 am
I will look more into Cherokee's creation.



Stop picking on our defenseless kirks Soldat!


(I have changed NSH to Transition Plan, as well as Wernersville and Gowanda.

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Quote:Thomasp94 Thu 1st 11:33 am
"The building is designed to embrace in its structure a combination of both the compact and cottage hospital plans—a modification of both, believed to embrace the advantages without the objectionable features of each. The work has been carried forward until it is now nearing completion in the violent and infirmary wards of the female wing."

This is kinda what I thought from the start. That they picked out the parts of existing plans they they liked and created their own plan. I'm starting to think we have ourselves yet another example of a Transition Plan.


BTW, why is Norristown still listed as an Echelon Plan?


It is most defiantly a transitional plan. Like they say it is a "corridor connected pavillion", and I have read sources that refer to Bangor as a Pavilion plan as well.

They were trying to combine the benefits of a kirkbride with the benefits of a cottage, while leaving out their problems. It seems to be what a few places did until the cottage plan really kicked off.

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[[1]]

[[2]]

Couple overhead views of Clarinda from Google satellite. The first is a normal satellite image. The second is a traced copy where I went around the image with black to try and highlight the outline of the building. I am at work and limited to using paint so it isn't great but it is a little easier to define the edges from the shadows.
Edited On 2:42:30 PM - Thu, Sep 1st 2011 by Evilavatar

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I'm thinking Transition Plan at this point too.

However, I did want to discuss the number of stories. Who decided that a true Kirkbride HAS to have 3 stories? I see the validity of your other arguments but saying Clarinda isn't a true Kirkbride because it is one floor short doesn't fly with me.

Anyway, I've spoke to the superintendant a few times in the past. He is very nice and helpful. I just put a call into him to see if we could get an "official response" from someone there. I'll keep you guys posted.

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Quote:WSH Thu 1st 10:21 am
I'm thinking Transition Plan at this point too.

However, I did want to discuss the number of stories. Who decided that a true Kirkbride HAS to have 3 stories? I see the validity of your other arguments but saying Clarinda isn't a true Kirkbride because it is one floor short doesn't fly with me.

Anyway, I've spoke to the superintendant a few times in the past. He is very nice and helpful. I just put a call into him to see if we could get an "official response" from someone there. I'll keep you guys posted.


There were certain guidelines for the kirkbride, every other kirkbride had 3 floors so it's a red flag when doesn't.

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I know Kirkbride on page 12 of his book recomends hospitals adopt the principle of bulding three stories, his reasoning being that it will be less expensive and expansive than one of only two stories

I mean, there could be a two story Kirkbride but it would be an oddity and divergence from Kirkbrides plan and the norm. The way I see it is aside from a select few hospital, such as Trenton, no Kirkbrides really followed the plan to a T. Almost all diverge in one way or another in more minor ways, be it Hudson’s detached admin, the C shape of curve of Dixmont’s wings, the detached buildings and T shaped single loaded wards of Topeka and Buffalo, the massive patient population of places like Greystone. Even Kirkbrides own building was modified to a U shape because of land restraints and as early as St Elizabeth’s he modified his own plan to create the “Improved Kirkbride”.

My point is this, there are some unspecified variations we see over and over again, like semi-detached wards, detached admins, large patient populations, etc. However, there are some variations we don’t see, such as two story ward buildings, a stong divergence in ward layout, severe detachment of administration or ward buildings, central entryways and stairways in wards, large amounts of associated dormitories. These are very odd, but that is not to say a hospital can’t have a couple of these odd features and still be a Kirkbride. Clarinda however, has all of these uncharacteristic features, and that is its problem.

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I'd still like to see an opinion from Ethan but I haven't seen him in sometime unfortunately. My vote is still that it's a Kirkbride.

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My thinking is that it's a Transitional Plan like others. I base that upon the time frame it was designed. Ideas were shifting and people were moving away from Kirkbrides ideas. So maybe this was a compromise between the older Kirkbride and the newer idea of the Cottage plan. That's my 2 cents.

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I feel there is a bias here towards the smaller height. I've never seen anyone make an issue of the hospitals with more than 3 floors, so why pick on Clarinda for 2!

I'd really value Ethan's opinion as well. I'll give him a shout and ask him to check out this thread.

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Quote:M-Explorer Thu 1st 9:20 pm
My thinking is that it's a Transitional Plan like others. I base that upon the time frame it was designed. Ideas were shifting and people were moving away from Kirkbrides ideas. So maybe this was a compromise between the older Kirkbride and the newer idea of the Cottage plan. That's my 2 cents.


"The building is designed to embrace in its structure a combination of both the compact and cottage hospital plans—a modification of both, believed to embrace the advantages without the objectionable features of each. The work has been carried forward until it is now nearing completion in the violent and infirmary wards of the female wing."

That's exactly what they say it was.

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Quote:WSH Fri 2nd 2:01 pm
I feel there is a bias here towards the smaller height. I've never seen anyone make an issue of the hospitals with more than 3 floors, so why pick on Clarinda for 2!
thread.


Were any kirkbrides built with more than 3 floors?

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OK folks check this out -

[1]

This isn't a Kirkbride at all, but if you read the description on page 6 of the historic application they sure make it out to be. Building was 4 stories, brick, and X-shaped. The folks made the decision for Infirmary Building, MO. Hospitals No. 3, being a Kirk based design based on the 2 sex divided wings connecting to a central administration building, so I think it all depends on who gives the description and where they get the idea of what a Kirkbride is. There is probably no way to completely classify all of these buildings one way or another. Someone may believe they based their building on a Kirkbride design and they may have some of the elements correct, but if you nit pick the buildings enough I am sure you could argue even some of the Kirkbrides aren't Kirkbrides. The big question you have to ask is what does it need to have to be a true Kirkbride. What bare bones qualities need to exist to classify it one way or another.


Actually check out page 17 and their description of Kirkbride too. Kind of an interesting read.
Edited On 8:46:28 PM - Fri, Sep 2nd 2011 by Evilavatar

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Thats really sort of crazy they are making the case for it to be a kirkbride plan building.

I think that speaks to the complexity of the plan. I mean, at the very core of the kirkbride plan is the idea of a central administration block with flanking wings, and perhaps that is what they were thinking of when going back to larger buildings over smaller cottages. However there are clear differences between an actual central hospital administration at center of a self contained building and the buildings central offices at the center of a building as part of a much larger hospital.

The thing about the kirkbride plan is you can classify buildings that fall under it because it was the one time when there really was an exact set of rules for buildings a hospital. Yes, at all times since there are trends and suggested methods but for that brief period of time in the 1800s it was essentially, "This is how you build a mental hospital, to these specs".

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Quote:Soldat251 Fri 2nd 8:01 pm
Were any kirkbrides built with more than 3 floors?


Yes.

Central Indiana State Hospital - 2 at this hospital alone
Anna State Hospital
Columbus State Hospital
Jacksonville State Hospital
Manhattan State Hospital (Based off the only 2 photos available)
St Elizabeths Hospital
Western State Hospital Hopkinsville
Weston State Hospital


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